Interview of Linus Torvalds; He Also Speaks Of Sad Situation Of India

India is kind of somewhat a sad situation. Compared to the amount of
educated people, I think India is fairly low on the list compared to
what it could be. Culturally it should be fairly easy, because
language barriers should not be there. If you are educated in India,
you know English even if it is not your first language. So India
actually should have an easier time being involved in some of the
discussions. Don't get me wrong, there are developers, but just not as
many as I would expect. And I don't know quite why.

There is a fair amount of really enthusiastic local LUGs and I get to
hear about them. But, at the same time I don't know India, you know
much better. My gut feeling is that a lot of the actual professional
developers in India see software development as a job and not as a
hobby. That's the kind of picture I've gotten, I don't know if it's
true. If you see it [software development] as a job and not as a hobby
the whole open source thing is not as natural anymore.

http://www.muktware.com/news/2855
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

technocraze

2011-11-03 05:18:00 UTC

Post by Swapnil Bhartiya
There is a fair amount of really enthusiastic local LUGs and I get to
hear about them. But, at the same time I don't know India, you know
much better. My gut feeling is that a lot of the actual professional
developers in India see software development as a job and not as a
hobby. That's the kind of picture I've gotten, I don't know if it's
true. If you see it [software development] as a job and not as a hobby
the whole open source thing is not as natural anymore.

I second it.. The whole life style of an indian student is spoiled
within 4 walls of the class room.. In reality, there is no hobby for
much of indian students, except for cinema, cricket and drinks.. The
common attitude we find among our people is to be jolly, which means.
free from any responsibility..

Another reason is that students in college are not taught anything
practical... There is no direction, no vision, and no purpose..

I wish, LUGC could research more on this and propose solutions.

Regards,
Senthil
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Manokaran K

2011-11-03 05:30:48 UTC

Post by technocraze
I wish, LUGC could research more on this and propose solutions.

You have succinctly captured our fundamental problem: we would like some
one else to solve our problems - do the ground work, analyze and propose a
few options so we can easily pick one and implement it :-)

The much derided college education system is only a reflection of the
larger issues in our society!

Don't get me wrong, am as much in the same boat as you!

regds,
mano
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Christopher

2011-11-03 07:31:36 UTC

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

I believe the initiative can come from the industry.

What if an IT major posts an ad for fresher vacancy (maybe even tomorrow)
and includes the following lines in the ad

1) Must have completed your final year project independently and must be
verifiable.
2) Must have shown interest in at least ONE tech group and must have
contributed significantly during student days.
3) Must have authored a tech blog.

and so on and so forth

I have seen vacancy ads with the above lines come up from startups but not
from established companies.

If big companies could just include some of the above lines in their ads,
automatically the students will follow suit, which will in turn force the
"powers to be" to include these in their standard curriculum.

Chris
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

technocraze

2011-11-03 09:00:04 UTC

Post by Manokaran K

Post by technocraze
I wish, LUGC could research more on this and propose solutions.

You have succinctly captured our fundamental problem: we would like some
one else to solve our problems - do the ground work, analyze and propose a
few options so we can easily pick one and implement it :-)
The much derided college education system is only a reflection of the
larger issues in our society!
Don't get me wrong, am as much in the same boat as you!

I am already doing this for the past 3 years, at the individual
capacity.. and today, i have around 5 persons whom i trained supporting
me. and i had networked with few like minded people in my region. As
an individual, i could only do what is possible in my surrounding and
environment.

Why i called in ILUGC is, to create a systematic decentralised
framework, to bring in a change at the state level. In my
understanding, we dont have a direction. We cannot expect student to
learn all by themselves, to search for themselves a suitable open source
project and then to join it. Because, they lack the basic essential skills.

There are around 600 engineering college in tamilnadu alone. I believe,
atleast 100 of them would have good facilities. If we could make
atleast two or three students in each of these selected 100 college to
participate in an open source project, we would be having atleast 200
students from tamilnadu alone contributing to open source.
But we dont have that big initiative.

Only Linux Baskar from this group has covered most colleges in tamilnadu
in installing open source labs, which is mindblowing. Why not we
utilise his network for bringing the next push?

PS: When some one puts forth a suggestion, please dont bang on him
asking "What have you done".. Focus on the idea being suggested.

Regards,
Senthil
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Manokaran K

2011-11-03 09:21:47 UTC

Post by technocraze
I am already doing this for the past 3 years, at the individual
capacity.. and today, i have around 5 persons whom i trained supporting
me. and i had networked with few like minded people in my region. As
an individual, i could only do what is possible in my surrounding and
environment.

Appreciate your initiative.

Post by technocraze
understanding, we dont have a direction. We cannot expect student to
learn all by themselves, to search for themselves a suitable open source
project and then to join it. Because, they lack the basic essential skills.

IMO, it is a similar attitude by the college managements towards students
that is driving them to have daily tests and drills! To me its
contradicting to think one can hand hold and tutor youngsters to be
independent and self-motivated!!!!

regds,
mano
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Arun Venkataswamy

2011-11-03 11:13:46 UTC

Post by technocraze
Another reason is that students in college are not taught anything
practical... There is no direction, no vision, and no purpose..

That's why I never went to college.
I am totally self taught and converted my favorite hobby to work.

OK, then I did have my father's company to work for (small 8 member
engineering company then). But it was the single most important decision in
my life.

I am not asking people to not to go to college, but the crux of the matter
is, nobody can teach you programming or an OS. you need to do it yourself.
Computer science, and theory, yes, a good mentor or tutor makes a
difference.

Unless you get a kick when you see your program compile without errors (at
least at some point in life) or when you see the output of a well designed
algorithm, you should not have career out of it. The problem is, almost
entirely, the IT pool in our country we are talking about does not relate
to this...

Regards,
Arun
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Girish Venkatachalam

2011-11-03 12:13:43 UTC

Post by Arun Venkataswamy

Post by technocraze
Another reason is that students in college are not taught anything
practical... There is no direction, no vision, and no purpose..

That's why I never went to college.

;)

Post by Arun Venkataswamy
I am totally self taught and converted my favorite hobby to work.

I would compare this to actors like Rajnikant who cannot be imitated even by
Simbu or by taught by any college. ( I don't think he knows how to
act or dance but he sure can deliver a hit movie)

For instance an MBA does not know what all troubles I go thro' in
business. The social
stigma, the poverty and so on.

Likewise autodidacts are special. There is a certain impish charm in their
struggle and the adaptability.

Since they learn all on their own their survival instincts are very high.

In life nobody gets to do what they studied. You always learn new
things later. And more than learning what counts is learning ability.

Coming to Arun who I happen to know well for the past few years, I
would put him at a much
higher level than the best educated people I have met. So I concur.

Post by Arun Venkataswamy
OK, then I did have my father's company to work for (small 8 member
engineering company then). But it was the single most important decision in
my life.

In India, we all want to make our parents proud. Fundamentally our
value system places a lot of emphasis on education and I do not talk
about any particular community or ethnic group.

This seems to be a cultural trend in this subcontinent.

Consequently choosing the educational stream is the most important
decision for all of us.

Post by Arun Venkataswamy
I am not asking people to not to go to college, but the crux of the matter
is, nobody can teach you programming or an OS. you need to do it yourself.
Computer science, and theory, yes, a good mentor or tutor makes a
difference.

Well Arun, I will share you told me in private. I hope you do not mind.

Arun used to teach computer science basics(not sure if it was
programming) to a girl who is now one of the top guns in Google, USA.

Yes, some innate inborn talent and appropriate initiative taken at an
individual level
is a must.

The point both Arun and I are trying to make here is that blaming
educational institutions is not very appropriate.

It fundamentally rests with individual and of course the atmosphere.

India lacks both. Committed motivated individuals are less and hard to find.

And even the good ones that have initiative are killed by the system.
Be it college or industry. Both are kaput in India. I have worked in
IIT Madras EEE department(not for IIT) for around a year and I have
worked in the best corporates in India(Bangalore and Chennai) and
surely some correction is necessary at all places.

As to my college days, yes I felt that the curriculum was extremely
competitive and appropriate the evaluation system was not.

This observation may partly be due to the fact that I never did well
in college. ;)

Definitely our educational system does not reward people like us...

I will leave at that.

Post by Arun Venkataswamy
Unless you get a kick when you see your program compile without errors (at
least at some point in life) or when you see the output of a well designed
algorithm, you should not have career out of it. The problem is, almost
entirely, the IT pool in our country we are talking about does not relate
to this...

It is like this.

Many Indians( I get reminded of Neeya Naaana programme in Vijay TV)
are doing engineering under duress. They are not really passionate.

Today America is facing problems in basic education and they wonder at
the math and language skills of Indians.

That is a very deep cultural thing. Nobody can erase it. Nobody can improve it.

We are born that way. The same way we are born with a certain nose and
have a certain height.

Though I am not happy with the availability of local talent for high
technology work this is due to various factors like brain drain, lack
of sustained interest in engineering, poor recognition for technical
people and so on.

Despite all this I think that Indian engineering and technology has a
bright future.

Even today do you have a single Indian technical innovation that can
stand up shoulder to shoulder with the world's best?

Most of us only want to do third rate services work in companies like
CTS, TCS, Wipro.

This has to change. And this will not change overnight.

Only then you can expect technology people to thrive and attract others.

How does someone get attracted to say something like and IIM MBA?

Only when various articles are published about how IIM guys make crore
salaries and have car, bungalow, power and so on.

Similarly we want success stories coming from millions made by top
technical talent in India.

This I think is a much bigger problem than out academic institutions.

-Girish

--
G3 Tech
Networking appliance company
web: http://g3tech.in mail: girish-HiVRd0fLlzz/***@public.gmane.org
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

technocraze

2011-11-03 21:19:55 UTC

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
In India, we all want to make our parents proud. Fundamentally our
value system places a lot of emphasis on education and I do not talk
about any particular community or ethnic group.
This seems to be a cultural trend in this subcontinent.

No.. The current trend is very recent one, triggered first by craze for
Government Jobs, and then later by IT sector. People went to college,
to get a degree, because, only if they get a degree, they will get
government job. And if they get govt job, they will get good bride
(Good looking, good dowry, etc etc).. The rot is somewhere else..

Prior to these government jobs craze, education was purposeful.. please
read *www.dharampal.net *on the indigenous education system. We had
more than 1 lakh schools in Madras Province alone during 18th century,
while at the same time, Britain had just 15000 schools.. The British
took lot of things from Indian education system, implemented it there,
and then destroyed the original setup in india.

For eg, from 1800 to 1850, Sanskrit course was the Top Most sought one, in most universities across Europe. That's how the europeans learned the art of structured language, which was later incorporated in programming languages. The Backus Naur form is essentially the Sanskrit Grammar.

On the other hand, we had been de-sanskritised, and de-educated using the macaulyte system.
(Please dont link sanskrit with religion.. i am writing on generic angle)..

This loss of native education system, pushed us few centuries back, whereas the west stole our concepts and advanced further. ( Can any one understand the link b/w Trigonometry, and Tiri Gona Mathy.. Thiri-Gonam = 3 angles )

Indian society places lot of emphasis on education.. but it was once
upon a time.. NOT present.. today, indian society uses education as a
tool to attain status, luxury.. and in that, we lost the purpose..

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
It is like this.
Many Indians( I get reminded of Neeya Naaana programme in Vijay TV)
are doing engineering under duress. They are not really passionate.

NOT just engineering.. Every college degree is without purpose.. Has
any of the educational institutions solved any problems in our society?
(Including IIT??)

My district namakkal is a transport hub, now facing so many problems..
there are around 30 engineering colleges in this... but NONE of the
mechanical students know anything about engines or other automobile
parts.. But, an ordinary worker in the workshop, will find the fault
in the engine, just by observing its sound..

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
That is a very deep cultural thing. Nobody can erase it. Nobody can improve it.
We are born that way. The same way we are born with a certain nose and
have a certain height.

This is pessimistic.. As explained above, this is not cultural thing..
we can change.. but for that, we need to understand ourselves, our
history and our native education system.. (again refer
www.dharampal.net )
Regards,
Senthil

_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Ravi Kumar Tenneti

2011-11-04 05:41:58 UTC

Hi,

In continuation to Senthil's mail, I would like all the members of ILUGC to
go through the Macaulay's speech in British Parliament in 1835. Sorry for
attaching an image but I think this will be apt here. Regards Ravi Kumar

For eg, from 1800 to 1850, Sanskrit course was the Top Most sought one, in

Post by technocraze
most universities across Europe. That's how the europeans learned the art
of structured language, which was later incorporated in programming
languages. The Backus Naur form is essentially the Sanskrit Grammar.
On the other hand, we had been de-sanskritised, and de-educated using the macaulyte system.
(Please dont link sanskrit with religion.. i am writing on generic angle)..

_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Vigneshwaran

2011-11-04 05:56:56 UTC

Post by Ravi Kumar Tenneti
Hi,
In continuation to Senthil's mail, I would like all the members of ILUGC to
go through the Macaulay's speech in British Parliament in 1835. Sorry for
attaching an image but I think this will be apt here. Regards Ravi Kumar

Cannot view the image.

Post by Ravi Kumar Tenneti
_______________________________________________
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

--
*Vigneshwaran Raveendran
*
*
*
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Roshan Mathews

2011-11-04 06:00:40 UTC

Post by Vigneshwaran

Post by Ravi Kumar Tenneti
In continuation to Senthil's mail, I would like all the members of ILUGC to
go through the Macaulay's speech in British Parliament in 1835. Sorry for
attaching an image but I think this will be apt here. Regards Ravi Kumar

Cannot view the image.

A fake quote that lots of people like to pull out from time to time -
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/hinduism/macaulay.html

technocraze

2011-11-04 07:38:10 UTC

Post by Roshan Mathews

A fake quote that lots of people like to pull out from time to time -
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/hinduism/macaulay.html

I had read this article by KE long back.. but i would like to quote
another phrase of Macaulay, which is authentic..

-----quote---
‘I have never found one amongst them [the orientalists] who could deny
that a single shelf of a
good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and
Arabia. It is, I believe,
no exaggeration to say that all the historical information which has
been collected from all the
books written in the Sanskrit language is less valuable than what may be
found in the most paltry
abridgment used at preparatory schools in England.’
--Minute of Lord Macaulay on the 2nd of February 1835

--end of quote ---

The above clearly shows the extreme contempt of macaulay over oriental
education.. The reason is that, the nature of indian education was
different from european variety..

In india, focus of schools was primarily for literacy and iculcating
good character.. The technical, and professional education was contained
within the Jaathi Setup. ie, there is no equivalent of engineering
colleges, but since each community collectively did a profession, they
innovated, and invented, technologies, as per their requirement. More
importantly, these technologies are NOT documented.. It was a living
knowledge, which continued to successive generation..

For eg, in the same dharampal website www.dharampal.net , there is a
description of how plastic surgery was practiced by a particular
community for thousands of years.. a team of doctors from england, tried
to know how it was done, but they were able to crack only 60 years
later.. and this was the starting point of plastic surgery field..

Like the same website describes about how small pox was contained with
simple techniques, how high quality steel was produced cheaply, and so
many arts and technologies being professed in india..

And all of these was destroyed by this education system.. otherwise,
where were the people, who built magnifient temples, where were the
people who professed plastic surgery in india?

Coming back to sanskrit, Please read this article by Rajeev Malhotra, on
how europe misappropriated sanskrit..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rajiv-malhotra/how-europeans-misappropri_b_837376.html

------ Quote---

Post by Roshan Mathews

"Sanskrit and Indology entered most major European universities

between 1800 and 1850, challenging if not replacing Latin and Greek
texts as a source for "new" ideas. Many new disciplines were shaped by
the ensuing intellectual activity, including linguistics, comparative
religion, modern philosophy and sociology. "
---end of quote---

I dont know how far these debates on non-technical things like history
is going to shape our mind.. but in my view, technical cannot be dealt
isolated.. Science and Technology is always part of a civilization.. and
Claude Alvares, from Goa, had beautifully explained this in his book
"Decolonising History".. it can be downloaded from the below link..

http://www.indianscience.org/essays/29-%20E--F-Decolonising%20History.pdf

So, i hope, we should be by now, having a perspective of our patetic
state of today's education, and the root cause.

If we want to try any solution, we need to analyse those root causes.

Regards,
Senthil

_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Vigneshwaran

2011-11-03 18:31:32 UTC

Post by technocraze

You are right. I fell in love with programming while studying 10th standard
(It was always fascinating to see something I created, work). So I joined
B.Tech IT and passed out this year. For past few years, I was creating open
source java applications and browser addons and participating in other's
projects in the evenings whenever I'm free and my projects were well
received (and also helped me get selected in interview. "Shortest
interview" my HR said). I wanted to influence all others in my class and
make them understand that we can learn ourselves and create whatever we
like. But others were not interested. They were just interested in the next
Vijay mass movie, Cricket, bunking class, going rounds etc like you said.
Even Mark scorers were convinced that it's enough to learn when the company
trains them and for now only marks are important and no need to "waste
time" like this.

In the end I could only change 5 friends who got the passion and made their
own projects individually and/or collaboratively and even taught me back
things I didn't know. All the others who memorized lab programs, who made
silly ugly errors like putting semicolon after if() statement in c and not
knowing it, who couldn't even "run" the project sold to them by project
centers(high profit business!) are now still searching for job. I did what
I could at first but then later I was more focused on improving myself
further as I thought it's useless to try to change people who don't wanna
change.

In my opinion, I guess the solution if there will be any should follow
bottom up approach. First enlightening students and making them passionate
in a field of their wish. It'll make talented faculties out of them if they
prefer that profession.

--
*Vigneshwaran Raveendran*
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Akshay Mishra

2011-11-03 04:37:30 UTC

the social condition in India is very different.

Post by Swapnil Bhartiya
India is kind of somewhat a sad situation. Compared to the amount of
educated people, I think India is fairly low on the list compared to
what it could be. Culturally it should be fairly easy, because language
barriers should not be there. If you are educated in India, you know
English even if it is not your first language. So India actually should
have an easier time being involved in some of the discussions. Don't get
me wrong, there are developers, but just not as many as I would expect.
And I don't know quite why.
There is a fair amount of really enthusiastic local LUGs and I get to
hear about them. But, at the same time I don't know India, you know much
better. My gut feeling is that a lot of the actual professional
developers in India see software development as a job and not as a
hobby. That's the kind of picture I've gotten, I don't know if it's
true. If you see it [software development] as a job and not as a hobby
the whole open source thing is not as natural anymore.
http://www.muktware.com/news/2855
--
Swapnil Bhartiya 
Editor: Muktware.com 
Skype: No Way...its non-free. Looking for alternatives 
Facebook: http://facebook.com/muktware 
Twitter: http://twitter.com/muktware
Google+ : https://plus.google.com/109027644713767623413/posts
--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers

--
http://mm.ilug-bom.org.in/mailman/listinfo/linuxers

0***@0throot.com

2011-11-03 07:04:26 UTC

Post by Swapnil Bhartiya
http://www.muktware.com/news/2855

IMO, cultural difference is just too great to even compare the two
worlds. Open source contribution in India will evolve and adapt over
time that suits our culture, the existing western style doesn't work
very well in India. This is NOT a sad situation, just in Linus' opinion.

The following quote from the interview are interesting, in a way, to
indicate that attributing success of Linux to one man would be
disrespectful to several others who have contributed in the last decade.

"There are about 70-80 people that I come to meet here. And honestly I
know about half of them pretty well. So there are almost 40-50 people I
have worked with so long that I know what they look like, probably I
know where they live, but, for every release there are a thousand
developers."

--
0
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

santhosh kumar

2011-11-03 07:21:30 UTC

Post by 0***@0throot.com

Post by Swapnil Bhartiya
http://www.muktware.com/news/2855

IMO, cultural difference is just too great to even compare the two
worlds. Open source contribution in India will evolve and adapt over
time that suits our culture, the existing western style doesn't work
very well in India. This is NOT a sad situation, just in Linus' opinion.
The following quote from the interview are interesting, in a way, to
indicate that attributing success of Linux to one man would be
disrespectful to several others who have contributed in the last decade.
"There are about 70-80 people that I come to meet here. And honestly I
know about half of them pretty well. So there are almost 40-50 people I
have worked with so long that I know what they look like, probably I
know where they live, but, for every release there are a thousand
developers."
--
0
_______________________________________________
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

The most important problem is the poor quality of education and curriculum
set forth. Final year engineering students are studying HTML and believe me
ive seen people by hearting the tags, and scratch their heads when doing a
practical exercise in HTML. Its that bad. To add to this, the quality of
faculties, people who have just completed thieir PG's which they obviously
completed immediately after their UG is taken as a lecturer. Without any
real world knowledge what good are they to the students they teach.

If you compare the faculties with that of foreign universities, all the
faculties would have done something significant in their field of expertise
but right here, you can never expect that. A good faculty amounts to half
the knowledge what the student gains in college and if they themselves have
no real world exposure how will they be able to transfer the knowledge.

I am not sure about other parts but im from tamilnadu, and there are about
400 engineering colleges under anna university and i can tell you the above
mentioned is the case with all the colleges expect the top 30 or so.
License are being sold like cup cakes without any inspection for standards.
The Curriculum is 10 years behind, how will the quality of engineers who
pass out would be.

Some of the corrective actions could be
1.Updating the curriculum atleast once in two years (@ tech is growing this
might have to come down to twice a year)
2.Issuing licenses to colleges which meets the standards
3.Setting proper standards first for each and every discipline
4.frequent inspections to the college to check they maintain the standards
set forth
5.setting criteria for lecturers
--
Regards

Santhosh
*github: *https://github.com/santhotech
*twitter | Facebook :* @santhotech
*Linkedin: *http://www.linkedin.com/pub/santhosh-kumar/27/bb/5a1
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Girish Venkatachalam

2011-11-03 07:43:23 UTC

Post by santhosh kumar
The most important problem is the poor quality of education and curriculum
set forth. Final year engineering students are studying HTML and believe me
ive seen people by hearting the tags, and scratch their heads when doing a
practical exercise in HTML. Its that bad. To add to this, the quality of
faculties, people who have just completed thieir PG's which they obviously
completed immediately after their UG is taken as a lecturer. Without any
real world knowledge what good are they to the students they teach.
If you compare the faculties with that of foreign universities, all the
faculties would have done something significant in their field of expertise
but right here, you can never expect that. A good faculty amounts to half
the knowledge what the student gains in college and if they themselves have
no real world exposure how will they be able to transfer the knowledge.
I am not sure about other parts but im from tamilnadu, and there are about
400 engineering colleges under anna university and i can tell you the above
mentioned is the case with all the colleges expect the top 30 or so.
License are being sold like cup cakes without any inspection for standards.
The Curriculum is 10 years behind, how will the quality of engineers who
pass out would be.
Some of the corrective actions could be
might have to come down to twice a year)
2.Issuing licenses to colleges which meets the standards
3.Setting proper standards first for each and every discipline
4.frequent inspections to the college to check they maintain the standards
set forth
5.setting criteria for lecturers

Interesting discussion this.

I have trained many batches in companies like CTS, Wipro et al.

Quality of students are a function of the starting pay and the brand of the
company. I found good students in a Ford fresher batch and guess what,
they were wearing T-shirts. Even girls.

So obviously they understand what they are doing. They say they are paid
4L per annum.

People in general work well and learn well if they are paid well and
groomed well.

I really don't think Indian engineering talent is in any way inferior
to Western talent.

The difference lies in focus and passion for continuing on and on and on.

You won't get skills in 5 or 7 years. It takes more than 15 years.

-Girish

kenneth gonsalves

2011-11-03 08:03:16 UTC

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
Interesting discussion this.
I have trained many batches in companies like CTS, Wipro et al.
Quality of students are a function of the starting pay and the brand of the
company.

not my experience

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
I found good students in a Ford fresher batch and guess what,
they were wearing T-shirts. Even girls.
So obviously they understand what they are doing. They say they are paid
4L per annum.

pay has nothing to do with it.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
People in general work well and learn well if they are paid well and
groomed well.

see above

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
I really don't think Indian engineering talent is in any way inferior
to Western talent.
The difference lies in focus and passion for continuing on and on and on.

that is correct - and contradicts what you said before

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
You won't get skills in 5 or 7 years. It takes more than 15 years.

actually research shows it as 10 years (strangely enough the same is
true for golf)

--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Girish Venkatachalam

2011-11-03 12:26:50 UTC

See below.

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 1:33 PM, kenneth gonsalves

not my experience

Okay my comment was not globally applicable. I am talking only about
fresh batches
I have trained.

No offense meant to CTS, but the quality of students I found in CTS
though it is the
biggest IT brand in Chennai I think(It is an American company on
paper but it is
Chennai based for all practical purposes) was very poor.

But I found better folks in Wipro.

And the college factor also matters. If you did well in 12th standard
you would have got into a great college and a great branch like ECE.

So that is another factor. It is not binding and universal, only a ballpark.

pay has nothing to do with it.

Well when I chose my job in campus I did not care about it. But well
it usually is that
you get paid really well if you get into a really good company.

Pay has something to do with attracting good talent both as freshers
and later but it
is not the only thing.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
People in general work well and learn well if they are paid well and
groomed well.

see above

What is grooming? Having good seniors at work and getting engineers to do real
engineering instead of plainjane testing, enhancement and low challenge jobs.

Freshers cannot expect sexy work from day one but your chances are
really high if
you are placed in good places.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
The difference lies in focus and passion for continuing on and on and on.

that is correct - and contradicts what you said before

Sorry I was not being very clear. Even now I am not. Nowadays my brain
has numbed probably due to age. ;)

Anyway my point is that people become competent when their passion for
technology and learning offsets all other social pressure.

The mysterious Indian middle class in which all of us belong want
money, social acceptance and face up to peer pressure.

In this complex situation even highly motivated people cannot stay
technical beyond the
fifth year of working.

There is simply no future for them if they stick to technology.

And until one gets around 15 years of experience one cannot do great work.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
You won't get skills in 5 or 7 years. It takes more than 15 years.

actually research shows it as 10 years (strangely enough the same is
true for golf)

Nice observation. ;)

I have no idea about golf. I was talking about middle class and you
are talking about a
sport that is the clearest indication of extreme affluence. ;)

I dunno if Gilli which is a beautiful Indian game for the poor takes
that long. ;)

Just joking.

-Girish

kenneth gonsalves

2011-11-04 07:18:58 UTC

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
sport that is the clearest indication of extreme affluence. ;)

a sport where the sons of ordinary course labourers have become
crorepatis

--
regards
Kenneth Gonsalves

_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Arun Khan

2011-11-05 08:17:47 UTC

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Girish Venkatachalam

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
Interesting discussion this.

Agree. I was offline for a few days and I am catching up.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
Quality of students are a function of the starting pay and the brand of the
company. I found good students in a Ford fresher batch and guess what,
they were wearing T-shirts. Even girls.

While this may be generally true, IMO it is the mind set of these
youngsters that is more important. Regardless of how bright and
sharp they are, most seek jobs in the "big" names and end up doing
mundane stuf v/s working @ small companies and really learning a lot
of stuff in a short period of time.

The primary reason cited a by a few I have discussed this factor - so
that their parents can brag my son/daughter works @ so and so place,
this in turn feeds secondary factors like marriage prospects etc.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
I really don't think Indian engineering talent is in any way inferior
to Western talent.

Totally agree - what I see missing is the application of mind. What
I also see missing is the doggedness to dive deep in a subject matter
and achieve some level of expertise. They know the stuff but don't
know how to put 2 and 2 and perhaps get 5 out of it :)

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
The difference lies in focus and passion for continuing on and on and on.

The crux - is the mind set and lack of passion to excel in your chosen
field. I have come across youngsters chasing certifications right
after graduation. They think a RHCE and/or CCNA will get them some
extra bucks but at the same time are not willing to invest time in
gaining practical experience - self study [1], internship or working
at start ups.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
You won't get skills in 5 or 7 years. It takes more than 15 years.

I differ. A person with passion and the right mind set can achieve
enough expertise in a subject matter within 2-5 years.

[1] Example - basic networking can be practiced using Virtual Box VMs
but I have not come across any student who has taken the initiative to
do so.

-- Arun Khan
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

Girish Venkatachalam

2011-11-05 09:54:30 UTC

Post by Arun Khan
While this may be generally true, IMO it is the mind set of these
youngsters that is more important. Regardless of how bright and
sharp they are, most seek jobs in the "big" names and end up doing
of stuff in a short period of time.

I am going to send a separate mail for employees. Now what is the
quality of the students I will attract?

Can I get good talent? No.

I don't think it is an easy answer. I can't claim I learnt nothing by
joining Novell first.

I learnt a lot not just tech stuff. I had a real feel of how working
for big superb companies could be. Definitely it was enjoyable,
meaningful and nice.

However I learnt the most by working for small companies in Chennai
and even Bangalore.

The lure of the lucre and social status cannot easily be erased from
the minds of people.

Post by Arun Khan
The primary reason cited a by a few I have discussed this factor - so
this in turn feeds secondary factors like marriage prospects etc.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with this thinking. We do not
like certain realities particularly if we are not benefiting by it. ;)

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
I really don't think Indian engineering talent is in any way inferior
to Western talent.

Fundamentally we are gifted people. Our nation and culture has placed
emphasis on the right values on education for more than thousand
years.

Now technology is not just knowledge. It is application and
engineering is not just memory or IQ.

It is a lot of skills gotten by experience and attitude.

Our attitudes need change. Not the basic skill and gene makeup.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
The difference lies in focus and passion for continuing on and on and on.

Yes.

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
You won't get skills in 5 or 7 years. It takes more than 15 years.

I differ. A person with passion and the right mind set can achieve
enough expertise in a subject matter within 2-5 years.

You left out a 1 before this number. 12 to 15 years. ;)

Post by Arun Khan
[1] Example - basic networking can be practiced using Virtual Box VMs
but I have not come across any student who has taken the initiative to
do so.

As I said engineering is not just knowledge. It is a lot more than that.

No use arguing with reality. If technical genius takes more than 10
years accept it.

You may not have the patience to pursue it. But that does not alter
the truth in
any way.

-Girish

Senthil Anand

2011-11-05 19:19:04 UTC

Post by Girish Venkatachalam

On 5 November 2011 15:24, Girish Venkatachalam

Post by Girish Venkatachalam
You won't get skills in 5 or 7 years. It takes more than 15 years.

I differ. A person with passion and the right mind set can achieve
enough expertise in a subject matter within 2-5 years.

You left out a 1 before this number. 12 to 15 years. ;)

http://norvig.com/21-days.html

In the essay Peter Norvig quotes studies showing that it takes "about
ten years to develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas" and
speculates that deliberate practice of over 10000 hours (which works
out to ~2.75 hours per day over a 10 year period) is what is required.

Regards,
Senthil
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/ma

சுதன் | suthan

2011-11-03 07:57:51 UTC

<http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc>

hi,

being a faculty member i thought i would share my ideas on the issue
discussed. all of your arguments are true regarding the state of
educational institutions and quality of staff members. Being head of
department i am also incharge of recruiting staff members to myh department
and one sad thing that i see is that all the students who are very bright
and could be a staff member like u discuss do not want to get into
teaching. They prefer industry. then how are we supposed to get good
faculty members if the brightest students are not willing to enter into the
profession.

Also any working member gets experienced only during a course of time. if
all of the faculties appointed should be experienced, then how are
graduates supposed to get jobs. what if all the industries want only
experienced persons and not freshers.

Coming to the students part i have observed most students not willing to
try anything other than what is given or prescribed by the curriculum. What
they want is good marks because the first entry point to an interview
process is marks. People who have the capability to memorize more win in
the race. a very few who try anything other goes to the industry.

I have seen a lot of faculty members who have and are trying to bring the
students into what we want or linus expects in his interview. i hope all of
u must have met atleast one faculty member like that in your college days.
Yes thats not enough ofcourse. i think suggestions by christopher could
bring some changes.

What if an IT major posts an ad for fresher vacancy (maybe even tomorrow)
and includes the following lines in the ad

1) Must have completed your final year project independently and must be
verifiable.
2) Must have shown interest in at least ONE tech group and must have
contributed significantly during student days.
3) Must have authored a tech blog.

and so on and so forth

Suthan.A
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

0***@0throot.com

2011-11-03 08:06:46 UTC

Post by santhosh kumar
If you compare the faculties with that of foreign universities, all the
faculties would have done something significant in their field of expertise
but right here, you can never expect that. A good faculty amounts to half
the knowledge what the student gains in college and if they themselves have
no real world exposure how will they be able to transfer the knowledge.

What we have is what we get. Things are improving and it will continue
to improve. We have just built our universities and colleges, as
supposed to western universities which are 100 or 200 years old. Give it
time, I am sure we will find our share of good faculties.

--
0
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

technocraze

2011-11-03 09:04:16 UTC

Adding to it, the daily tests being conducted even in engineering
colleges. Recently i conducted a small meeting for students in my
relative circle. They told, that they have no time to spend for
learning other things, as they have daily drill tests. Can we save
our students from all these?

Regards,
Senthil
_______________________________________________
ILUGC Mailing List:
http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc

santhosh kumar

2011-11-03 09:25:45 UTC